By #PhilGriffter – Phil Griffin for RocknLoadMag.com
The legendary band finish their last night at the Roundhouse in London – the culmination of their worldwide tour on their 40th anniversary! As raw power ground breakers of post-punk, industrial, goth, metal, tribal and electronic music, it doesn’t come much more rock than that. We were lucky enough to talk to Jaz backstage just before the gig, for a serious brain dump of his piercing thoughts and a prelude to their killer performance.
RnL: Congrats on hitting 40 years of seriously hard music – and this is the final night of this worldwide tour!
Jaz: You’ve got to remember, we’ve been touring since August. We’ve been straight, too. And I’m glad I didn’t see the tour dates before I started, because some of them were like five nights in a row and I’d never do that, because of the voice and things. But we did it, we kind of nailed it, and it’s been an amazing tour. I’ve loved every minute of it. Even the hardest moments, it was great.
RnL: Were the hardest ones in America, South America, Europe or UK?
Jaz: The hardest one’s now. I woke up this morning and couldn’t stand up. I was so tired. It’s just like everything’s about energy management with this thing, especially with Killing Joke.
RnL: To quote to your Death and Resurrection show, have you conjured up the ritual white heat?
Jaz: It’s been stunning. I haven’t enjoyed a tour as much as this tour since I can’t remember when. And it’s brought us closer together. We are close anyway, but these guys are almost part of my own body. When one person gets ill, it’s everyone’s problem. Between us, we’ve got 240 years of wisdom.
RnL: So, 40 years on, and all original members again.
Jaz: When Raven died, big Paul came back, but the three of us were marching together quite a long time before that. And before that, every time I fell out with Youth over Raven, and fell out with Raven and went back with Youth… well, you have to make it work.
RnL: This decade, the last 3 albums have a similar brutal power, a triptych to the first album – do you think they have something together or are just different anyway?
Jaz: No, I don’t really think too much about it. When you go in to do a Killing Joke album, you never know what accident’s pan out. You know it’s gonna be great, but you don’t know what it’s gonna be like. You can’t really have preconceptions. All I think about when I start a new album is to do something better than all the other ones.
RnL: It’s a bit of a mystery as to whether you’ve got another one bubbling up to hammer in with new Geordie riffs – is there another album coming soon?
Jaz: For sure, as long as World War III doesn’t break out. Between you and me, we’re writing this year.
RnL: Cool. So it’s happening, but don’t want us to say that?
Jaz: No, you can say anything you like, but it won’t be out until 2020.
RnL: Brilliant, that’s good news!
Jaz: It is, because the world needs this band. After talking with so many people … On this tour, I’ve made a point of going to meet Gatherers personally, as many as I can. It’s touched me how much the music means to so many people. And the things that are happening in this world … We live in a culture of full-spectrum dominance – you just have to look at the Pentagon and the US Air Force, and when they talk about using the weather as a force multiplier, and the future enemy is populations and not countries. We’re in a transnational time, pretty much, now. And so in order to control populations, they spray the sky with fucking aerosol. You know it and I fucking know it. The technology is there. We’ve got so much metal inside of us, they can switch your internal organs off now. Each one of us gives out an individual body signature that can be seen by 3D thermal imaging, through walls, everything. It’s all there. It’s working now.
RnL: What, nano-tech?
Jaz: It’s so far down the line. The elite, like Gates and Brzezinski and Kissinger, talk about the broad mass of people as expendables or useless eaters. Brzezinski said, “It’s easier to kill a million people than to feed a million people.” We’re one step away from mass genocide. It’s really here. Everything our fathers warned us about, maybe not yours, but my father was in the last war. He told us to beware and speak out when you see fascism on the rise, but all I see is people self-censoring in silence. Silence is complicity. Don’t forget that. Silence is complicity and you condemn yourself when you don’t speak when you see real evil happening. And I do. I see evil happening on this planet now. I mean, the chem trails have 16 separate components. They’re doing all sorts of things to us. They’re changing the human genome, because they know, the powers that be, that we’re living in the sixth extinction period. They know that we use one 300th of the planet for all our food supply zone. The thinking is, is to change the human digestive system, for example. You and I, we are the last of our species. We are. We’re moving away from homo sapiens to homo veritas or homo universas with the trans-human option, and there will be two types of people. There’ll be the overlords who will look visibly different to the e-workers. Already, we have a new caste system. You have the owners, the managers, the workers and the expendables. It means they don’t have the wealth to be able to afford the trans-human downloads where you can upgrade your IQ to 600 plus.
RnL: Do you think anyone is doing anything good? Is there any genetic engineering that could benefit?
Jaz: Yeah, I do. I do.
RnL: Bill Gates says that he’s doing it. You don’t think that he is?
Jaz: Bill Gates, he said, “If we do a really good job on vaccines, we can reduce the population by 15 to 10%.” Quote/unquote. He spoke at the Sierra Club or whatever it’s called. And then you see Bono hanging out with him. Fucking Bono saying he was someone who believes in genocide. Maybe Gates is doing something. He says that he wants to feed more people. But he’s a liar. He believes in eugenics, like his father.
RnL: Anyone doing that kind of genetic engineering is, to a certain extent, doing a form of eugenics. But like you say, maybe some of it could be good. It’s just a matter of who could be doing the good stuff.
Jaz: That’s a very interesting point. When it comes to transforming the human genome, who sets demand standards? Who is gonna play God? What kind of people are they? The way people like David Rockefeller see ordinary people, I’m sure he doesn’t think that we should have the right to even have a sex life. Trans-human within the eyes of people means take that particular pleasure out of a human’s life. Anything can happen. It’s a very scary situation. I don’t know what to say. I’ve been working a lot in Russia, so I see how the Russians feel encircled by NATO. Bush and Baker promised Gorbachev they would expand NATO’s borders. Well, you have a look. Georgia, Lithuania, Estonia, they just moved in. Ukraine. Victoria Nuland, you can go on the internet and you can hear her call to the US Ambassador on it… basically, they instigated a kind of revolution.
RnL: To expand the American empire in Eastern Europe?
Jaz: Yeah, all this. No, it’s horrifying. Even now, next week when I go to the other side of the world, I don’t even know whether I’m gonna make it back. It’s like this these days. So when I take a bus with my mum and the boys, I don’t know whether I’m gonna see them. It’s so on the edge, the world now.
RnL: Well you’re a survivor, so if anyone’s gonna make it back, you will. And the whole world seems to be crashing to the globalization predictions you’ve been making for years.
Jaz: That has actually started. We’ve been talking about these things and people ignored us for a while, but now, we’re the only ones talking about it. You can see, this tour, it’s been sold out. It’s been sold out, there’s one reason why. It’s because the world is going so bad that it’s the only thing that makes sense, and where you can be with other people and you share the same sentiments. For me, Killing Joke is not a band, it’s a holy mission. We reincarnated before, but it’s so we can bring some sort of relief to the ordinary people in the beginning of a new dark age.
RnL: People have to get inspiration from music.
Jaz: Listen, I’d like to bomb Google. I’d like blow up every microwave tower in the world. At the moment, we’re building another 500 nuclear power stations, after Fukushima. You don’t hear anything about Fukushima anymore. Media, as we know, is completely controlled. It’s amazing when I think that when I saw my first Jumbo Jet in 1971 or whatever, the amount of time it takes to go from Barcelona to New York is the same in 1971 as it is now. But it’s not true. There are very exotic forms of propulsion these days, very exotic.
RnL: Not for us, though.
Jaz: When I mean very exotic, I mean their origin is astounding. We’ve seen science expand in a kind of exponential curve so much. Things like night vision goggles or fiber optic cables. Where did this originate from? Where did all this high technology come from? My feeling is it didn’t come from us.
Jaz: The difference between a human and a chimp is massive, but it’s only 1%. We’ve been augmented, somewhere down the line. My feelings after being part of the mystery tradition for so long is that man was augmented from a base hominid for mining purposes. This is where we are now. We are the crowning confident child. Now we have to reestablish our ethics, our morality, and man is approaching polytheosis.
RnL: Arcana has always been a thread of your Killing Joke story. Do you still get meaning from a flip of a Tarot card or do you think that any magic is just overwhelmed by information and data now?
Jaz: Magic has started the band and protected the band. Magic’s very real. We do it every night. I don’t use the Tarot in terms of divining, but in terms of symbolism, absolutely. I use a system to understand a symbol, deeply reflect on it, and eventually, it reveals itself.
RnL: Do you think that comes from an external source or from deep inside your psyche?
Jaz: Probably both. Macrocosm and microcosm.
RnL: Europe’s always been a strong theme of yours – you spend a lot of time there, and of course now, it’s all coming to a bit of a precipice. Has it become the true European Super State?
Jaz: Go to China. Go to America. Have a look at these other places and then you realize how important Europe is. The notion of civilization. Things like the abolition of the death penalty and a good legal system. This is Eurocentric, for me. In China, with their form of capitalism, when workers don’t reach their target goals, they’re forced to eat cockroaches.
RnL: From your first album, the song Complications still often comes to mind, like nothing seems to get simpler. Or do you find things are simplifying in your mind, if not the world?
Jaz: I know that I think that barely 1% of the population can understand the complex issues that we have today, these days. Apart from the forthcoming resource war, we have the complication of disclosure. You have to see The Disclosure Project to understand what that means. Disclosure is when mankind realizes that he is not alone or has never been alone, and that there is not one off-planet visitor, but a multitude of them. The thing is, the Rand Corporation, in the ’60s, they did a study on the exposure of our civilization to an extraterrestrial civilization and they warned against disclosure, because … well, think about it. When mankind suddenly awakens to the fact that religion, history, everything has been a lie, everything that you thought was real is not real, everything’s a lie, man goes into a state of collective depression. That’s why disclosure is something to be treated very carefully, but it’s very real. Disclosure is when our respective governments come clean.
RnL: Full honesty. Unlikely.
Jaz: Let’s have a look at NASA. They stopped using the Challenger, but have they stopped going into space? No, they haven’t. They have much more exotic craft… Instead of sitting on a roman candle and blasting off into space, they have exotic forms of propulsion, which are quite clearly reverse engineered, in my opinion. We have the TR-3. Have a look at Ronald Reagan’s diaries. He said, back in the ’80s, that they had spaceships above us that could take 300 people. That was back in the ’80s.
RnL: Challenger hasn’t seemed to develop much.
Jaz: It was a front. This is all a fucking front, basically. When Gary McKinnon hacked into NASA, he saw lists of terrestrial officers and fleet-to-fleet transfers, and then he saw a picture of a space station that was so sophisticated and rivetless, the mind boggles. What we have is something called a breakaway civilization, which is to say, the whole UFO thing went into the corporate arena in the Nixon government. It went away from government into corporation. This technology has been kept for the few, and they now are 200 years ahead of us. They are a breakaway civilization.
RnL: There are a lot of things going on that we don’t know about.
Jaz: This is it. It’s so complex now. To add to this, what’s happening on our planet and every planet in our solar system is that the magnetosphere is radically changing. On our planet, it is radically changing and I think this is because of a wider external threat. I believe that there’s planetary bodies, not that are gonna hit us, but other solar systems are all in an elliptical orbit that, as they get closer … and by closer, I mean vast distances away from us … it changes the magnetosphere of our planet, basically. To explain the complexity of these problems and why what we call global warming is really occurring, we’ve got to the point, it’s too complex to explain to the average person. They’ve got such small attention spans these days.
RnL: No one knows what to believe, and it’s not just one country – it’s not just Europe or just America or just China?
Jaz: It’s transnational, yeah. I think nation states as we knew them, they don’t really exist. Look, when you take the wealth of a nation away, with its resources, and you corporatize them, basically, nations only exist as a sort of protectorate in a name, but not in terms of functionality. Because it’s owned by other forces. That’s what we have. We’ve given all our wealth away to corporations, transnational corporations. There are no checks and balances. What do you think this TTP, the Trans Pacific Partnership Agreement was? In 35 chapters taking the wealth away from every signatory, which we are not party to. It means we can never sue corporations.
RnL: But is it corporations or politics that drives it?
Jaz: No, it is corporations. Politicians are just salesmen. At the top of the pyramid you have the central banks. They’re the people that print the money and they’re private. This is private. I don’t know whether you know your history, but the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, Woodrow Wilson’s government, this is when the Bank of America basically became private, the federal reserve, which is like 10 or 12 families. Their descendants today are the beneficiaries. They have wealth beyond the imagination.
RnL: Do you think that they’re in league with these extra-terrestrials?
Jaz: Oh, for sure. There’s no secret. I’m an occultist. And the hidden masters of any secret society are not human.
RnL: They don’t only exist in our mind and it’s our mind that creates our worlds?
Jaz: I don’t really put much store in the human mind. Our real brain is our heart. That’s where we gauge morality and ethics from. You lie to yourself, you get a knot in the solar plexus here. We have a basic kinesiology that will tell us what is right and what is wrong. This is the real brain. That’s why the Egyptians venerated the heart.
RnL: And your music now is pummelling that heart. Do you feel that?
Jaz: You know, I don’t give it too much thought.
RnL: Do you think it’s channelling something outside of yourself or it comes from you guys bringing it together, which has nothing to do with anybody else trying to control it?
Jaz: Oh, no. We invoke our ancestors every night. We’re going by an ancestral spirit in Killing Joke. When our beloved go into the next world, they’re still there for us when we remember them. They guide us. We believe in the ancestral spirit in Killing Joke.
RnL: Well, that’s what you’re gonna do now for the gig – fantastic, thank you, Jaz!
Interview : By #PhilGriffter – Phil Griffin
Photography : Manu Volpina